**** TITLE: Epiar 0.5.0 Planning Meeting
**** DATE: 2010-11-07
**** PRESENT: knowknowledge, topher, mike410_, digital-phoenix, DuMuT6p, iosif

**** NOTE: Log is edited for clarity, e.g. pre-meeting chat has been removed.

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Nov 07 10:07:00 2010

Nov 07 10:07 <topher> hm
Nov 07 10:08 <topher> 1807 gmt right now?
Nov 07 10:08 <mike410_> hiya topher
Nov 07 10:08 <topher> naturally we make the meeting on _thee_ weekend morning there's a clock change
Nov 07 10:08 <topher> hey mike410_, how's it going?
Nov 07 10:08 <mike410_> lol
Nov 07 10:08 <topher> my apologies folks, it appears i'm the late one
Nov 07 10:08 <topher> anybody else active?
Nov 07 10:08 <digital-phoenix> hi topher
Nov 07 10:09 <topher> hey digital-phoenix
Nov 07 10:09 <DuMuT6p> hi topher
Nov 07 10:09 <topher> digital-phoenix: how's it going?
Nov 07 10:09 <DuMuT6p> I was late too
Nov 07 10:09 <DuMuT6p> got online a minute ago
Nov 07 10:09 <topher> hey DuMuT6p, lol, no worries apparently
Nov 07 10:09 <topher> was knowknowledge waiting around and is now away?
Nov 07 10:09 <DuMuT6p> yep
Nov 07 10:10 <DuMuT6p> he just left
Nov 07 10:10 <topher> drats
Nov 07 10:10 <topher> let me see if i can reach him real quick
Nov 07 10:11 <DuMuT6p> <DuMuT6p> have I missed anything?
Nov 07 10:11 <DuMuT6p> <knowknowledge> So far we've talked a bit about:
Nov 07 10:11 <DuMuT6p> <knowknowledge> The AI should react to each other and the player.
Nov 07 10:11 <DuMuT6p> <knowknowledge> The Editor should be able to create Universes from scratch.
Nov 07 10:11 <DuMuT6p> <knowknowledge> Each planet gets a flavorful blurb.
Nov 07 10:11 <DuMuT6p> <knowknowledge> Each planet gets some randomized politics and rumors.  These should be based on Alliance.
Nov 07 10:11 <DuMuT6p> <knowknowledge> Each ship gets an Alliance.
Nov 07 10:11 <DuMuT6p> <knowknowledge> Unfortunately, I need to take off very soon.
Nov 07 10:11 <topher> hm
Nov 07 10:11 <mike410_> that sums it up...mostly
Nov 07 10:11 <digital-phoenix> yeah does anyone have any more suggestions
Nov 07 10:12 <mike410_> <mike410_> looks like the website was reorganized to only have current version
Nov 07 10:12 <topher> ah, so did knowknowledge run through the whole meeting?
Nov 07 10:12 <mike410_> he wanted us to continue and someone fill him in
Nov 07 10:12 <topher> yeah, good idea, there's some additional things i wanted to talk about to but let's finish up on this topic
Nov 07 10:13 <topher> are we taking suggestions on ai-based issues or general 0.5.0 wants?
Nov 07 10:13 <topher> (also hi everyone, it's nice to see you all in live chat, hehe)
Nov 07 10:13 <digital-phoenix> yeah i am planning on making them react to each other more
Nov 07 10:14 <topher> yeah, i like these suggestions so far
Nov 07 10:14 <mike410_> I guess the meeting is for general 0.5.0 wsihlist
Nov 07 10:14 <topher> hey iosif
Nov 07 10:14 <iosif> hey man
Nov 07 10:14 <topher> iosif: california time change get you off too?
Nov 07 10:14 <iosif> yeah i have no idea what time it is :)
Nov 07 10:14 <topher> i'd also like to add a general clean up of the UI code and artwork
Nov 07 10:15 <mike410_> lol hi iosif
Nov 07 10:15 <DuMuT6p> hi from me too
Nov 07 10:15 <topher> the UI container bit was sort of tacked on at the end and it seems the artwork is largely placeholder stuff
Nov 07 10:15 <iosif> mike410_: you are the eclipse?
Nov 07 10:15 <topher> iosif: we're talking 0.5.0 suggestions
Nov 07 10:15 <DuMuT6p> topher: do u have better artwork ready?
Nov 07 10:16 <mike410_> oh...sorry..no I am fozzy410
Nov 07 10:16 <topher> DuMuT6p: yea, and i put the psd up somewhere, let me find it
Nov 07 10:17 <topher> http://epiar.net/files/misc/Complete%20UI.psd
Nov 07 10:18 <topher> http://i.imgur.com/94Cl2.png
Nov 07 10:18 <topher> not every dialog is designed correctly (you can see the landing screen missing a "leave" button, notably), but the general widgets are there
Nov 07 10:18 <topher> so that's something i'd like to see for 0.5.0
Nov 07 10:19 <DuMuT6p> it will be good
Nov 07 10:19 <DuMuT6p> I think we urgenetly need menus and that stuff straightend out
Nov 07 10:19 <topher> http://i.imgur.com/5FLpT.png
Nov 07 10:19 <topher> yes
Nov 07 10:19 <DuMuT6p> it doesn`t feel like a game without it
Nov 07 10:20 <topher> yes. you mean a title screen and main menu?
Nov 07 10:20 <DuMuT6p> yep
Nov 07 10:20 <topher> yeah
Nov 07 10:21 <topher> should we talk about other issues or are there more feature requests folks want to see in 0.5.0?
Nov 07 10:21 <DuMuT6p> I`ve done a basic mouseover effect just cause it irretatse me without it ;]
Nov 07 10:22 <mike410_> I think the biggest thing is gonna be the editor
Nov 07 10:23 <digital-phoenix> since were planning on assigning  each ai to an alliance it would be nice to have alliance colours as part of the ships 
Nov 07 10:23 <mike410_> once that is ready we can start building universes and missions a lot easier
Nov 07 10:23 <mike410_> that's a great idea digital-phoenix
Nov 07 10:24 <DuMuT6p> does EVERY ship has to have an alliance?
Nov 07 10:24 <digital-phoenix> probably not 
Nov 07 10:25 <mike410_> I think there could be some independant but the majority should have alliance
Nov 07 10:25 <DuMuT6p> yep
Nov 07 10:25 <topher> yeah, on the hud, the target recticule could be colored or have a color portion to indicate alliance
Nov 07 10:25 <topher> yeah, i like the idea of maybe 5% being independent
Nov 07 10:25 <digital-phoenix> i think it might be convenient  for the mean time if every was part of an alliance
Nov 07 10:25 <DuMuT6p> rogue ships
Nov 07 10:26 <topher> and i take it we're just treating "pirates" as one alliance with high uhh, mallicous attributes?
Nov 07 10:26 <DuMuT6p> digital-phoenix: you mean for coding?
Nov 07 10:26 <topher> it might be fine in coding to just allow for alliance == null
Nov 07 10:26 <DuMuT6p> yep
Nov 07 10:27 <topher> i think alliances should have various attributes that affect the politics and AI actions of their ships. something we can plug into a really simple formula that brings some life to the game
Nov 07 10:27 <DuMuT6p> we can even put the alliance functions in a seperate object
Nov 07 10:27 <topher> things like aggressiveness, ambition, ... maybe a few others
Nov 07 10:28 <mike410_> it's a tradeoff of making it eaiser to code the ai for now with all ships having an alliance and having to change the ai later to add the "rogue" ships
Nov 07 10:29 <mike410_> I think that's what we have to decide on...which makes more sense?
Nov 07 10:29 <topher> i'm not personally volunteering for that task, but imo, it should be fairly easy to code for independent ships now, and it's always best to do it the way you mean to the first time then to have to go back and fix it and find bugs (e.g. an AI algorithm that selects by alliance would never select an independent ship because we didn't have alliance==null as a possibility yet)
Nov 07 10:30 <topher> that's my two cents anyway
Nov 07 10:31 <topher> im all for letting whoever implements those features decide
Nov 07 10:31 <digital-phoenix> we could make the alliances react to rogue ships the same way the alliances react to the player
Nov 07 10:31 <mike410_> I agree with topher, there would probably be a lot of chasing down code that will need to be changed if we add alliance==null later
Nov 07 10:31 <DuMuT6p> or another aproach is to make an "empty" alliance
Nov 07 10:32 <iosif> topher: lol
Nov 07 10:32 <DuMuT6p> digital-phoenix: the player could have an alliance too
Nov 07 10:32 <topher> hm, we really shouldn't discuss the particulars of its implementation right now. let's keep this a high level meeting and leave this next bit for a discussion on epiar-devel between whoever is implementing it and the rest of us, yes?
Nov 07 10:32 <digital-phoenix> yeah we could add alliance based missions
Nov 07 10:32 <DuMuT6p> topher: ok
Nov 07 10:33 <topher> digital-phoenix: yea, good idea. there's a function that generates the available missions to a ship and we should certainly add parameters like that to it
Nov 07 10:33 <mike410_> topher, I'm def ok with that
Nov 07 10:34 <topher> knowknowledge has done some great work with lua and missions and it's worth it to look at that portion of the code and learn it. the lua<->c++ bridge is not too bad
Nov 07 10:34 <iosif> could those attributes, like aggressiveness, alliance, persistence etc be implemented in the lua scripts? maybe one alliance targets another for being less aggressive, or the player wants his alliance to target rogues, etc
Nov 07 10:34 <topher> iosif: yea, i like that. i'd favor implementing some of the attributions as part of an alliance that the lua scripts could act upon, rather than lua variables themselves. kind of like a baseball card or something, there's just always certain stats that matter
Nov 07 10:34 <topher> *attributes
Nov 07 10:35 <topher> so lua scripts certainly dictate alliance actions, but alliance base attributions (which do flucutate) are at least a set-in-stone number of variables like aggressiveness, etc
Nov 07 10:35 <topher> that way when somebody implements something new, we have common interpretations on what each attribute is for and they can work off that
Nov 07 10:39 <topher> (btw, anybody else getting some odd lag on this? im getting bits of silence and then a few messages at once ...)
Nov 07 10:39 <DuMuT6p> I`m not sure cause my connection here isn`t good
Nov 07 10:39 <DuMuT6p> try reconnecting
Nov 07 10:39 <mike410_> no lag here...I think it may be user caused lag...I'm getting stuff together for a shower...gotta go shopping soon
Nov 07 10:40 <iosif> Likewise, i'm on some public wireless here
Nov 07 10:40 <mike410_> so I keep getting up and then when I come back typing a few messages
Nov 07 10:40 <topher> ok, no worries
Nov 07 10:40 <topher> so if nobody has anything to add on features or that alliance stuff, let's move onto other meeting talking points
Nov 07 10:41 <iosif> what sort of parameter would cause a ship to attack until they win or die (like a klingon)?
Nov 07 10:41 <iosif> because i want to be an alliance of great and foolish warriors
Nov 07 10:41 <mike410_> lol
Nov 07 10:41 <topher> lol
Nov 07 10:41 <DuMuT6p> may be max aggresiveness
Nov 07 10:41 <mike410_> topher I was wondering about the website
Nov 07 10:41 <topher> aggressiveness and humility i guess?
Nov 07 10:42 <topher> mike410_: sure, what's up?
Nov 07 10:42 <topher> aggressiveness = how often they'd be willing to pick a fight and humility is how foolish they are in not stopping it
Nov 07 10:42 <topher> my guess is we'll end up with 8-10 attributes to describe all those basic emotions
Nov 07 10:42 <topher> (btw, if _anybody_ needs a trac login still, please email me at chris@epiar.net - you should be able to create/edit tickets and create/edit wiki content)
Nov 07 10:43 <mike410_> knowknowledge asked me to d/l and try to install the 0.4.0 windows ver but I got a 404 error...apparently you're not leaving older vers up anymore>
Nov 07 10:43 <topher> windows only had a 0.4.1 release, let me grab the link
Nov 07 10:43 <DuMuT6p> 0.4.0 was updated a day after release
Nov 07 10:43 <mike410_> oic
Nov 07 10:43 <topher> http://epiar.net/files/epiar/releases/
Nov 07 10:43 <DuMuT6p> it got a very big bug with weapons
Nov 07 10:44 <topher> http://epiar.net/files/epiar/releases/0.4.0/Epiar-0.4.1-win32.zip
Nov 07 10:44 <topher> besides getting trac access, i wanted to say that there's still some big plans for the website as well
Nov 07 10:44 <mike410_> thanks topher...got it :)
Nov 07 10:44 <topher> i want to give everybody access to post moderated news, and we had success with forums before
Nov 07 10:44 <iosif> i tried building with msys on windows but i had a problem compiling libxml, anybody have a similar problem?
Nov 07 10:44 <topher> we also used to have a community section for players to upload their own missions. things like this should probably see the light of day again unless anybody has an objection
Nov 07 10:45 <topher> iosif: want to stick around on irc after the meeting and we can fix it? ive built epiar on msys/mingw before
Nov 07 10:45 <iosif> topher: yeah yeah, sorry to divert :)
Nov 07 10:45 <DuMuT6p> iosif:I`ve had too, it may need some other libraries
Nov 07 10:46 <topher> if nobody has anything to add about the website, the last order of business i wanted to discuss was us developers ourselves
Nov 07 10:46 <DuMuT6p> topher: I was wondering, about those screens on the site
Nov 07 10:46 <DuMuT6p> what`s that game?
Nov 07 10:46 <topher> lol
Nov 07 10:47 <topher> we started the codebase over a while ago and that was the c (not c++) version (old version) of the codebase
Nov 07 10:47 <topher> it made it to 0.6.0 or so, which has led to some confusion as we've re-done the versioning
Nov 07 10:47 <DuMuT6p> aham
Nov 07 10:47 <topher> it was more feature complete but also harder to work with given a lot of it was in unordered c code
Nov 07 10:48 <DuMuT6p> and that on sourceforge is it too?
Nov 07 10:48 <topher> it's still available under historic releases
Nov 07 10:48 <topher> DuMuT6p: yea, sf.net has it under historic as well
Nov 07 10:48 <topher> oh there's another item of business before we discuss developers
Nov 07 10:48 <topher> sf.net, freshmeat, and some of those other sites
Nov 07 10:49 <topher> they require somebody maintain them
Nov 07 10:49 <topher> should we continue to post our news and files to these other sites or try to consolidate on our own site?
Nov 07 10:49 <DuMuT6p> we can add only complete versions to them
Nov 07 10:50 <DuMuT6p> sourceforge is a great advertising site
Nov 07 10:50 <topher> i agree, it's good for hits. epiar.net constantly receives unique hits every day even when nothing's going on, probably because of sf.net
Nov 07 10:50 <topher> the problem is, we'll need volunteer maintainers for that. i have no interest in updating all those sites
Nov 07 10:51 <topher> anybody here is welcome to volunteer - we really just need releases and screenshots kept up to date, and maybe _major_ news articles. i'd imagine it's a 5 minute a week sort of job
Nov 07 10:51 <mike410_> sourceforge is how I came here
Nov 07 10:51 <DuMuT6p> If nobody else wants, I can do it on sourceforge
Nov 07 10:52 <DuMuT6p> me too
Nov 07 10:52 <topher> yea, that's what i thought
Nov 07 10:52 <topher> DuMuT6p can maintain it unless somebody else objects, in which case we can do a battle to the death or something
Nov 07 10:52 <DuMuT6p> ..in Epiar
Nov 07 10:52 <topher> oh right
Nov 07 10:53 <topher> in epiar, of course
Nov 07 10:53 <mike410_> lol
Nov 07 10:53 <digital-phoenix> maybe one day
Nov 07 10:53 <topher> haha, yea, let's keep it to 0.5.0 features eh?
Nov 07 10:53 <mike410_> it would probably be best if all the sites have the same info
Nov 07 10:54 <mike410_> how many sites are we on?
Nov 07 10:54 <topher> ok, the only other point of order i wanted to discuss (and feel free to inject your own points of order before the meeting is over) is just developers: how's everybody doing? does everybody have their github post-commit hook pointing to epiar-commits, does anybody need explanations of certain areas of the codebase, etc etc
Nov 07 10:54 <topher> mike410_: i have no idea, lol. sourceforge and freshmeat are the only two i've known people connected to the project to actively maintain
Nov 07 10:55 <topher> some other pages (this one just came up on google http://www.brothersoft.com/games/epiar.html ) we have no control over
Nov 07 10:55 <topher> they likely read it off sf or freshmeat
Nov 07 10:55 <mike410_> ok
Nov 07 10:55 <topher> also, if anybody else has noticed epiar is the name of a canadian SEO company, dont worry about that. they appeared, as far as i can tell, a little after us, and they have nothing to do with us
Nov 07 10:56 <topher> concoincidental naming
Nov 07 10:56 <DuMuT6p> lol
Nov 07 10:56 <mike410_> that's cool but what's up with the other epiar on sf
Nov 07 10:56 <topher> mike410_: other epiar?
Nov 07 10:57 <mike410_> http://sourceforge.net/projects/epiar/
Nov 07 10:58 <DuMuT6p> topher: the same thing I was asking
Nov 07 10:58 <mike410_> <knowknowledge> Mike, that's a competely different game, sorry.  Same name, similar developers, different code.
Nov 07 10:58 <topher> uhh
Nov 07 10:58 <topher> oh yea
Nov 07 10:58 <topher> so that's our old sf.net account
Nov 07 10:59 <topher> i think knowknowledge confused it a bit tho, it's this project (you, me, everybody)'s sf.net page
Nov 07 10:59 <mike410_> I'm on my old desktop not my laptop that has my epiar bookmarks so I went to sf and searched for epiar
Nov 07 10:59 <topher> it just needs to be updated
Nov 07 10:59 <mike410_> oic
Nov 07 10:59 <mike410_> so  what I d/led ver 0.5.0 that was what you were talking about that is old C based code?
Nov 07 11:00 <topher> yea
Nov 07 11:00 <topher> the C codebase was rebooted, so to speak, after 0.6.0-rc2, and we started with 0.1.0 again
Nov 07 11:00 <topher> we're currently at 0.4.1 and are discussing 0.5.0 - the two are trying to implement the same game but share no code, only some graphics
Nov 07 11:01 <topher> (we basically have carte blanche to steal graphics from the old version)
Nov 07 11:02 <mike410_> ok
Nov 07 11:02 <topher> hope that clears it up tho
Nov 07 11:02 <topher> but my last question, how is developing going? is anybody having trouble they didnt want to mention? is anybody confused at what trac or epiar-commits is for?
Nov 07 11:02 <mike410_> ya I was concerned there was another project with the same name
Nov 07 11:03 <topher> mike410_: nah, that's actually the site DuMuT6p will be updating to match our current project
Nov 07 11:04 <mike410_> my main issue is trying to find time between studying for calc...my 2 programming classes are starting to have more complex assignments and maintaining a home with a g/f and 4 kids
Nov 07 11:04 <topher> lol
Nov 07 11:04 <topher> ok, so that's one thing i wanted to mention actually
Nov 07 11:04 <DuMuT6p> topher: email me the details
Nov 07 11:04 <topher> there is _zero_ pressure to produce something. i don't want this getting in the way of people's lives. if your natural rate of commitment is 2 lines of code per month and chiming in via e-mail, that's great, i don't want this to generate guilt for anybody
Nov 07 11:05 <topher> if we need more work to be done, we can always grow our community
Nov 07 11:05 <topher> so actually, thank you to everybody for everything we've done so far, and don't worry about it
Nov 07 11:05 <topher> DuMuT6p: you need to make a sf.net login and then just e-mail it to me and i'll add you as project admin
Nov 07 11:06 <DuMuT6p> topher: I already have, it`s this name, DuMuT6p
Nov 07 11:06 <mike410_> cool...but I joined to get some experience in large scale and group development...so I really want to contribute more...
Nov 07 11:06 <mike410_> next semester I will have a lighter load
Nov 07 11:06 <mike410_> my only tough course should be biology
Nov 07 11:07 <mike410_> plus I will have some time during winter break
Nov 07 11:07 <mike410_> spring break I'm booked though
Nov 07 11:07 <topher> mike410_: good :) to you and everybody else, if you need mentoring on a specific part of the codebase or how we cooperate together, etc. , just ask on epiar-devel, dont worry
Nov 07 11:07 <mike410_> hehehe
Nov 07 11:08 <mike410_> I joined the STEM club and we are going to LA to tour JPL
Nov 07 11:08 <DuMuT6p> the only problem for me is that I can only work weekends on my PC
Nov 07 11:08 <topher> DuMuT6p: k, ill add you
Nov 07 11:08 <topher> DuMuT6p: that's ok
Nov 07 11:08 <DuMuT6p> weekdays I`m in another city
Nov 07 11:08 <DuMuT6p> but I try to check email dayly
Nov 07 11:09 <topher> ok, sounds good. yea, sf.net only needs to be updated every now and then
Nov 07 11:09 <topher> ok, anybody else want to discuss anything else?
Nov 07 11:10 <DuMuT6p> I`ve got a suggestion
Nov 07 11:10 <DuMuT6p> for a better interaction, we can make almost anything on the ship replace-able
Nov 07 11:11 <DuMuT6p> even radars may be
Nov 07 11:11 <mike410_> isn
Nov 07 11:11 <mike410_> sorry
Nov 07 11:11 <topher> yea, the ships should be really customizible
Nov 07 11:11 <iosif> this brings up a good question though... what level of detail really adds to the game experience?
Nov 07 11:11 <DuMuT6p> that would bring a feel of power to advanced players
Nov 07 11:11 <mike410_> isn't that in 0.6 or 0.7?
Nov 07 11:12 <DuMuT6p> to be able to see the shield of the oponent
Nov 07 11:12 <topher> DuMuT6p: ok, you have permission to do everything
Nov 07 11:12 <mike410_> I thought there was something about component upgrades coming in later versions
Nov 07 11:12 <topher> DuMuT6p: could you please post the mac, windows and src versions of 0.4.1 to sf.net and make a news posting about it?
Nov 07 11:13 <topher> well
Nov 07 11:13 <topher> there's sorta components now
Nov 07 11:13 <topher> each ship has an engine, a shield, and a finite number of weapon mounts
Nov 07 11:13 <topher> there's also a generic list of "upgrades" that will do whatever a lua script can do
Nov 07 11:14 <iosif> oh i like the idea of ship customization being in lua scripts
Nov 07 11:14 <topher> i imagine the ship component interface is just something that keeps growing but we should heed iosif's question there and ensure we do things for the good of the game, not just because complexity is cool
Nov 07 11:14 <topher> iosif: yea, actually the AI, UI, and a lot of main control components are in lua. knowknowledge was actually complaining it's maybe too lua-ified right now. you can hit tilde to bring up a console and create ships in-game, etc.
Nov 07 11:15 <topher> some add-ons might require more code support than just lua
Nov 07 11:15 <topher> for instance, a radar upgrade
Nov 07 11:15 <topher> that would require the radar code accept a new draw function
Nov 07 11:15 <topher> so we might need to add little hooks here and there
Nov 07 11:15 <mike410_> true but I think being able to upgrade components is definintely adding to the game experience...I think it would be expected in a 1.0 ver
Nov 07 11:16 <topher> mike410_: def. you can do it now, actually, there's just no UI for it
Nov 07 11:16 <topher> lol
Nov 07 11:16 <topher> if somebody wants to make the outfit interface for 0.5.0, that'd be a great task
Nov 07 11:16 <topher> (outfits i think are the general name we've been using for things like this)
Nov 07 11:16 <topher> iosif: sweet public wifi btw
Nov 07 11:16 <mike410_> wb iosif
Nov 07 11:17 <mike410_> lol
Nov 07 11:17 <DuMuT6p> I mentioned that, just to keep it in mind
Nov 07 11:17 <DuMuT6p> we don`t need to do it right away
Nov 07 11:17 <iosif> hell yea! I actually clicked the Readability bookmark, my fault :)
Nov 07 11:17 <mike410_> I gotta get going
Nov 07 11:17 <topher> btw, ill be posting the meeting notes to epiar-devel
Nov 07 11:18 <topher> please chatter the hell out of epiar-devel, helps make us feel good :)
Nov 07 11:18 <topher> mike410_: ok, i think that's about the whole meeting
Nov 07 11:18 <mike410_> thanks all and if I have any questions I'll email to the list
Nov 07 11:18 <topher> mike410_: thanks for making it here!
Nov 07 11:18 <mike410_> cyas
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Nov 07 11:19:00 2010