**** TITLE: Epiar 0.4.0 Planning Meeting
**** DATE: 2010-03-19
**** PRESENT: knowknowledge, arke, topher, maoserr, ebos

**** NOTE: Log is edited for clarity, e.g. pre-meeting chat has been removed.

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 19 17:15:26 2010

Mar 19 17:15:26 ---	Topic for #epiar is epiar.net - Version 0.3.0 now available. See the announcement: http://epiar.net/news/2010/03/09/epiar-030-now-available . Check out the new Editor mode: http://epiar.net/news/2010/03/09/ingame-debuggingediting-in-latest-snapshot . knowknowledge: your grandiose ideas for a turing complete space epic may have to wait until you can [at least compile it]
Mar 19 17:15:26 ---	Topic for #epiar set by topher!~topher@epiar/founder/topher at Tue Mar  9 14:41:30 2010
Mar 19 17:15:26 -ChanServ-	[#epiar] Welcome to #epiar, IRC channel for Epiar ( http://epiar.net ) on the Freenode IRC network! Visit the Epiar forums at http://forums.epiar.net/
Mar 19 17:15:26 ---	#epiar :http://epiar.net/
Mar 19 18:01:05 <knowknowledge>	hi #epiar
Mar 19 18:01:11 <arke>	hi matt :)
Mar 19 18:01:16 <arke>	oh
Mar 19 18:01:23 <arke>	it's meeting time
Mar 19 18:02:12 <topher>	hey folks
Mar 19 18:02:14 <topher>	it is meeting time
Mar 19 18:02:15 <knowknowledge>	Role call?  Who's actually here and who's just idle?
Mar 19 18:02:33 <arke>	The four of us, it seems.
Mar 19 18:02:34 <Maoserr>	so if I understand correctly, the new list<whatever> can be programmed in such a way as to use a custom memory allocator
Mar 19 18:02:48 <Maoserr>	can we do this for any generic C++ object somehow?
Mar 19 18:02:54 <arke>	I'll be gone for about 3 minutes in between (the IRC client will still be active, I ust won't be answering), because I need to replug my computer.
Mar 19 18:03:05 <arke>	Maoserr: if the individual objects support it, yeah.
Mar 19 18:03:29 <Maoserr>	hmmm, that certainly could speed up some of the classes that are doing a lot of allocation every frame
Mar 19 18:03:38 <arke>	Maoserr: for example, you could make a base class that overrides operator new so that it allocates on the frame heap, though in practice you'd want the caller deciding that, not the callee
Mar 19 18:04:15 <arke>	Yep. Prime example - the quadtree GetSpritesNear().
Mar 19 18:04:29 <arke>	anyway
Mar 19 18:04:37 <arke>	we should probably do this meeting somewhat organized
Mar 19 18:04:41 <arke>	who's moderator? :)
Mar 19 18:04:55 <knowknowledge>	I'll be moderator.
Mar 19 18:05:04 <arke>	Sounds good.
Mar 19 18:05:20 <knowknowledge>	Has everyone who's attending seen the list I sent out to epiar-devel?
Mar 19 18:05:29 <Maoserr>	yea
Mar 19 18:05:32 *	arke has
Mar 19 18:06:34 <knowknowledge>	So I think we should either go through that list one by one or just pull things to the top.  I want to separate the must-haves with the nice-to-haves
Mar 19 18:06:53 <Maoserr>	oh, the website's down
Mar 19 18:07:02 <Maoserr>	guess I'll have to dig through my archives
Mar 19 18:07:45 <topher>	sorry, im having ssl difficulties with the apache bits
Mar 19 18:07:56 <knowknowledge>	The overarching question is "What does a bare bones  but playable Epiar need to have?"
Mar 19 18:08:37 <topher>	sorry, yes ive seen it
Mar 19 18:08:42 <topher>	let me bring the site back up
Mar 19 18:08:56 <topher>	i apologize, i thought this ssl fix would take less than 45 mins :)
Mar 19 18:09:21 <arke>	matt's wishlist from his email: http://pastebin.com/9W6T2Z4F
Mar 19 18:09:33 <knowknowledge>	Thanks arke.
Mar 19 18:09:45 -->	ebos (~root@c-76-114-26-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #epiar
Mar 19 18:09:51 <topher>	hi ebos
Mar 19 18:09:55 <ebos>	Hi
Mar 19 18:09:58 <knowknowledge>	Whoa! It's ebos!
Mar 19 18:10:04 <knowknowledge>	hi
Mar 19 18:10:12 <knowknowledge>	Glad you could make it.
Mar 19 18:10:18 <arke>	hi ebos - perfect timing, we're just getting started. knowknowledge is moderating. :)
Mar 19 18:10:52 <knowknowledge>	The basic plan is to go through my wishlist ( http://pastebin.com/9W6T2Z4F ) and find the things we NEED vs things we WANT.
Mar 19 18:10:56 <ebos>	Cool
Mar 19 18:11:18 <knowknowledge>	If anyone has extra things that we should add (needs or wants), we should add them to the list.
Mar 19 18:11:46 <knowknowledge>	Once we've gone through the list and the site is back up I'll add tickets for them all.
Mar 19 18:12:21 <knowknowledge>	To start, I would say that an Title Screen is necessary, but only if we have the ART to make it work.
Mar 19 18:12:32 <Maoserr>	I was going to take a stab at that
Mar 19 18:12:38 <Maoserr>	but I haven't found a good intro music
Mar 19 18:13:17 <knowknowledge>	The title screen is actually two parts:
Mar 19 18:13:20 <topher>	part of this 0.4.0 should be the finding of artists
Mar 19 18:13:27 <knowknowledge>	something pretty to look at while the game loads,
Mar 19 18:13:43 <knowknowledge>	and something that lets the user pick their player, change the options, quit, save, etc.
Mar 19 18:14:11 <arke>	Code concerns for title screen: Fading support with openGL, assuming it's supposed to fade. This is pretty easy though. 
Mar 19 18:14:27 <Maoserr>	with accumulation buffers?
Mar 19 18:14:34 <topher>	we have a number of screens from 0.5.0 that are good looking
Mar 19 18:14:42 <topher>	the fonts should be redone but that's not a large concern
Mar 19 18:15:02 <arke>	Maoserr: even easier. in directX speak, it's a matter of setting the ambient color.
Mar 19 18:15:15 <knowknowledge>	topher, can you compile those and post them to the Epiar.net blog so that we can get a vote or something?
Mar 19 18:15:18 <Maoserr>	ah
Mar 19 18:15:25 <topher>	site should be back up
Mar 19 18:15:58 <topher>	knowknowledge: we used a few in random rotation on 0.5.0. i think that's still a good idea
Mar 19 18:16:13 <knowknowledge>	I'm fine with that.
Mar 19 18:16:27 <topher>	knowknowledge: i can put them up later, yeah
Mar 19 18:16:45 <knowknowledge>	Anything else about the title screens?
Mar 19 18:17:02 <knowknowledge>	Maoserr, besides the intro music, are you interested in implementing the title screen?
Mar 19 18:17:11 <arke>	Don't forget to call srand(), is the only thing I can think of. :)
Mar 19 18:17:15 <Maoserr>	title screen?
Mar 19 18:17:15 <topher>	here's that e-mail again, from the archives that you should get used to using: http://epiar.net/pipermail/epiar-devel/2010-March/000382.html
Mar 19 18:17:22 <Maoserr>	is that the main menu?
Mar 19 18:17:29 <knowknowledge>	Yeah.
Mar 19 18:17:47 <knowknowledge>	The stuff that happens before we actually launch a given simulation.
Mar 19 18:17:53 <Maoserr>	I suppose I'll go ahead and finish all the UI work then, and if that get's done soon enough I can do the main menu from there
Mar 19 18:18:17 <Maoserr>	I think my main concern now is to make sure we have a fully functional UI and more Audio options
Mar 19 18:18:24 <topher>	i guess some folks might not have played 0.5.0, but the menu (at least used to have) has: play, load game, options, tutorial, exit
Mar 19 18:18:50 <topher>	play split into main game and scenarios
Mar 19 18:18:51 <Maoserr>	we could probably add a few things
Mar 19 18:19:48 <knowknowledge>	Okay, I'll put the intro stuff tentatively under your name Maoserr.  It's definitely gated on the Music and UI working though.
Mar 19 18:20:05 <Maoserr>	if anyone finds any good music for an intro, that'd be great
Mar 19 18:20:18 <topher>	id be very cautious on the intro music.
Mar 19 18:20:30 <ebos>	I would suggest using something not too overpowering
Mar 19 18:20:31 <topher>	it should be subdued and not very dramatic in my opinion, otherwise it's going to get annoying
Mar 19 18:21:13 <knowknowledge>	Moving on.
Mar 19 18:21:27 <knowknowledge>	Do we want Missions in 0.4.0 or is that something we get later?
Mar 19 18:21:33 <Maoserr>	so something not like this: http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=48544
Mar 19 18:22:00 <topher>	id like to see missions in 0.4.0 but i dont think they're the most important thing on the list
Mar 19 18:22:23 <topher>	epiar had a lot of players in the 0.5.0 days and it never had missions, although that always felt like the big thing left out
Mar 19 18:22:37 <arke>	0.4.0 should be the starting point for modders to do interesting things with epiar. Therefore, missions should be in there too, since that's pretty essential.
Mar 19 18:24:31 <topher>	missions are good if there's time but we really need the basics: nav map, sound, menu, landing dialog, buying upgrades, exploring the galaxy
Mar 19 18:25:27 <topher>	we could also use a clean up of some of the things already in there: the way collision detection works and the lack of shield animations needs to be fixed
Mar 19 18:25:53 <topher>	are any of us particularly confident with opengl and using it to do special effects out of curiosity?
Mar 19 18:26:23 <arke>	In theory, yes. I've not worked with openGL, only DirectX and the Wii API, though.
Mar 19 18:26:33 <Maoserr>	eh, I've been reading the red book and a lot of opengl articles
Mar 19 18:26:47 <Maoserr>	however, I have no experience
Mar 19 18:26:55 <arke>	So therefore I don't know of the little weird pitfalls that openGL might have.
Mar 19 18:28:34 <knowknowledge>	A better question, is anybody interested in playing with OpenGL to get a Shield animation working?
Mar 19 18:28:35 <topher>	well, it sounds like one of you could do the special effects then. we really need a shield special effect but some kind of particular engine or a warp effect also wouldnt hurt. it'd need to be somebody pretty interested in learning opengl
Mar 19 18:29:11 <topher>	*some kind of particle effect
Mar 19 18:29:21 <Maoserr>	do we want a particle engine?
Mar 19 18:29:41 <topher>	i dont really know what's implied when people say particle engine, i was just thinking some kind of particle effect where it's appropriate :)
Mar 19 18:29:45 <knowknowledge>	I want a .ani that looks like a particle engine.
Mar 19 18:29:56 <Maoserr>	ah ok
Mar 19 18:30:00 <topher>	that's a bit silly. particles seem like something to do on the fly, not in a .ani
Mar 19 18:30:20 <knowknowledge>	I just mean for a ship engine.
Mar 19 18:30:32 <knowknowledge>	I want more engine animations :-)
Mar 19 18:30:54 <topher>	ditto! i think perhaps not for 0.4.0 but later somebody should explore taking even that on via opengl
Mar 19 18:31:08 <topher>	i know you're moderating knowknowledge but lets have Maoserr or arke take this and move on, yes?
Mar 19 18:31:17 <knowknowledge>	sounds good.
Mar 19 18:31:29 <knowknowledge>	Special effects: Maoserr / Arke
Mar 19 18:31:36 <Maoserr>	I'll try to take it on after everything else though
Mar 19 18:31:53 <topher>	i think it's a bit obvious but any network play should be put off until a later release
Mar 19 18:31:57 <arke>	We can probably coordinate each other once we get there.
Mar 19 18:32:05 <arke>	topher: agreed.
Mar 19 18:32:11 <topher>	characters and saved games too imo
Mar 19 18:32:15 <Maoserr>	just a note
Mar 19 18:32:26 <Maoserr>	I don't want Epiar to require the internet to play
Mar 19 18:32:29 <knowknowledge>	Maoserr, you don't have to work on something just because I put your name next to it, (the beauty of open source), just let somebody else work on it.
Mar 19 18:32:39 <topher>	Maoserr: have no fear
Mar 19 18:32:42 <Maoserr>	it sort of defeats some of the point of a game for me
Mar 19 18:32:57 <knowknowledge>	topher, ebos is interested in getting networking up.
Mar 19 18:33:12 <topher>	i dont think we should get into network play right now but the idea id like to propose at the appropriate time is very complimentary to single player
Mar 19 18:33:19 <ebos>	yeah i have been doing investigation into it
Mar 19 18:33:45 <topher>	ebos: sdl_net? what are your priliminary thoughts on it? perhaps we should talk about it on epiar-devel later (since it's not a 0.4.0 topic)
Mar 19 18:33:55 <ebos>	sure
Mar 19 18:34:02 <topher>	ebos: but id like to talk to you and maybe work with you closely on it since im interested in the server daemon side (being the admin of epiar.net and an IT guy, lol)
Mar 19 18:34:04 <Maoserr>	lua sockets :-p
Mar 19 18:34:29 <topher>	i think really the landing dialog, buying equipment, basic AI, menu screen, cleaning things up, possilby missions
Mar 19 18:34:33 <topher>	these are the 0.4.0 items
Mar 19 18:34:41 <topher>	knowknowledge: are you keeping a list? what do we still need to touch on?
Mar 19 18:34:46 <knowknowledge>	topher.  Thanks I've got that list.
Mar 19 18:34:50 <topher>	ok
Mar 19 18:35:11 <knowknowledge>	The editor features I listed haven't been discussed.
Mar 19 18:35:53 <arke>	Regarding editor features, all that are on the list except for AI Training and maybe taking control of AI.
Mar 19 18:35:57 <knowknowledge>	I'd like to work on them, but if we don't think they're necessary I should probably push them off.
Mar 19 18:36:32 <knowknowledge>	Editing scripts while the game is running will be a bit interesting.
Mar 19 18:36:54 <knowknowledge>	I'm sure we can do it, but it will require a bit of framework that we don't currently have.
Mar 19 18:37:09 <topher>	you can of course work on what youd like but i dont see any of the editor features are essential for 0.4.0 in comparison to the list already discussed
Mar 19 18:37:10 <knowknowledge>	Also, it will need an awesome multi-line editor widget.
Mar 19 18:37:25 <topher>	*as essential for 0.4.0
Mar 19 18:37:35 <Maoserr>	seriously? we're going to have a text editor in game?
Mar 19 18:37:51 <Maoserr>	that seems a bit, unnecessary to be honest
Mar 19 18:37:54 <topher>	Maoserr: the idea was to allow for basic changes to a script so you could debug what youre doing. nothing special
Mar 19 18:37:58 <ebos>	what about a console?
Mar 19 18:38:06 <topher>	ebos: there is a basic console atm
Mar 19 18:38:20 <ebos>	really?
Mar 19 18:38:23 <knowknowledge>	We have a console, but it's really basic.
Mar 19 18:38:23 <knowknowledge>	What would we want to have it do?
Mar 19 18:38:24 <topher>	ebos: yea, hit tilde
Mar 19 18:38:32 <ebos>	ill check it out
Mar 19 18:38:42 <topher>	the console is important. i should be able to type in lua one liners and have it apply live. that sounds useful
Mar 19 18:38:57 <knowknowledge>	ebos, did you work on the camera stuff earlier?  The shaking and lag?
Mar 19 18:39:28 <ebos>	yeah
Mar 19 18:39:34 <topher>	(fyi, unrelated, but im working on basic login and editing features for 0.4.0 so people besides me can add content should they choose)
Mar 19 18:39:39 <ebos>	does it need modification?
Mar 19 18:39:42 <topher>	(for epiar.net i mean)
Mar 19 18:40:02 <knowknowledge>	ebos, no I'm just wondering what it would take to make the camera zoom out.
Mar 19 18:40:21 <Maoserr>	yes, i think we need to have at least a bug tracker working if we want this to be a public release
Mar 19 18:40:21 <ebos>	thats not as easy
Mar 19 18:40:22 <knowknowledge>	With the editor-mode you really want to see much more than the playable-mode.
Mar 19 18:40:48 <ebos>	Ill look into it
Mar 19 18:40:50 <topher>	Maoserr: isnt trac our working bug tracker?
Mar 19 18:40:59 <ebos>	put it as a line item and ill see what it takes to make it happen
Mar 19 18:40:59 <knowknowledge>	topher, that's you.  Make the bug tracker available for anyone to add/comment on.
Mar 19 18:40:59 <Maoserr>	you can zoom the opengl camera I think, but that'll probably just break everything
Mar 19 18:41:09 <arke>	I think he means public bug tracker.
Mar 19 18:41:12 <Maoserr>	yea, but can anyone post a bug?
Mar 19 18:41:14 <knowknowledge>	topher, it only works for the 'in-crowd'.
Mar 19 18:41:19 <topher>	oh
Mar 19 18:41:33 <topher>	that can probably be changed but trac isnt really user-friendly
Mar 19 18:42:03 <Maoserr>	also, something that probably should be addressed: error handling
Mar 19 18:42:06 <topher>	in the last generation, marco wrote a custom bug tracker. it was simple but worked. im not sure the wisdom in that for us tho
Mar 19 18:42:11 <knowknowledge>	We need some way to accept user feedback though.
Mar 19 18:42:19 <Maoserr>	the game pretty much just segfaults if it can't find certain files
Mar 19 18:42:22 <topher>	id like a really simple bug tracker for users honestly
Mar 19 18:42:36 <knowknowledge>	Maoserr, hehe, yeah...
Mar 19 18:42:58 <knowknowledge>	we need to make Epiar a bit less bug ridden and a bit more error tolerant.
Mar 19 18:43:21 <knowknowledge>	topher, I'd prefer that we avoid custom solutions.
Mar 19 18:43:34 <topher>	concerning the bug tracker, do we want to open it up so players submit bugs to the same list as us, or do we want to have users submit to us and if we decide, we make our own trac reports?
Mar 19 18:43:38 <knowknowledge>	They're more likely to be abandoned while we work on something else.
Mar 19 18:43:42 <topher>	knowknowledge: i understand the wisdom in that but im not convinced either way atm
Mar 19 18:44:49 <knowknowledge>	I would say that we make everythin in the same list.  Things that are "New" rather than "Accepted" haven't been investigated by a developer yet.
Mar 19 18:44:51 <arke>	I don't know how it is for most OSS projects but wine, for example, has an integrated bugtracker for everybody.
Mar 19 18:45:24 <topher>	i think most projects have a list for everybody. i just dont know how that would work with trac. ill have to investigate trac permissions
Mar 19 18:45:53 <knowknowledge>	ebos, what do you think of adding a bug submission tool to the list of networking pieces?
Mar 19 18:46:03 <ebos>	i could do that
Mar 19 18:46:06 <topher>	honestly, epiar.net needs some attention anyway. in this day, having a comprehension website is practically as important as having a decent product to show
Mar 19 18:46:28 <topher>	*comprehensive
Mar 19 18:46:30 <ebos>	i dont see that as a priority for the 4.0 release but ill work on it
Mar 19 18:46:31 <knowknowledge>	topher, I agree.
Mar 19 18:46:37 <Maoserr>	you could probably script something with lua sockets for non time critical operations
Mar 19 18:46:45 <arke>	I'd like to note that google offers a good crash reporter tool that would integrate with epiar and could automate sending crash reports etc.
Mar 19 18:47:00 <topher>	a lot of programs use wrappers for that. epiar is actually a script that launches epiar-bin or something, so it can catch the core dumps and send the logs when something goes wrong
Mar 19 18:47:04 <knowknowledge>	I'm interested in getting a blog submission account or something.  I don't know if I'd want to do the web work, but I can submit content and stuff.
Mar 19 18:47:15 <topher>	im more than interested in doing the web side of things
Mar 19 18:47:27 <topher>	it's my forte
Mar 19 18:47:32 <knowknowledge>	of course.
Mar 19 18:47:33 <Maoserr>	arke, link?
Mar 19 18:47:47 <arke>	Maoserr: I don't remember the name, but it's on google code somewhere.
Mar 19 18:47:47 <knowknowledge>	arke, that sounds pretty awesome. I'm intrigued.
Mar 19 18:48:14 <knowknowledge>	I'm sure that github also has a built-in way of submitting comments or bugs.
Mar 19 18:48:34 <topher>	it probably does but id like to wait a while before relying on github for yet more things
Mar 19 18:49:14 <topher>	yea, id strongly prefer whatever our bug tracker be, it be on epiar.net
Mar 19 18:49:38 <Maoserr>	also, who has the fastest upload to epiar.net?
Mar 19 18:49:55 <knowknowledge>	topher: While I understand the concern, github isn't going away any time soon and I don't want to overburden you with non-epiar stuff to work on.
Mar 19 18:50:17 <knowknowledge>	Maoserr, topher practically lives at Epiar.net
Mar 19 18:50:20 <Maoserr>	it's a pain in the butt for me to upload binaries because my uplink is so slow
Mar 19 18:50:58 <Maoserr>	it'd be nice if someone else could take control of making the win32 and ubuntu packages, I could write cron scripts and batch files so we can have weekly builds
Mar 19 18:51:00 <topher>	i can handle it. ive been uploading all the releases so far and handling the blog posts
Mar 19 18:51:20 <Maoserr>	and I can check for build errors
Mar 19 18:51:22 <topher>	Maoserr: that'd be great. let's talk about it on epiar-devel. as long as it works on a linux host, epiar.net can do it automatically
Mar 19 18:51:34 <Maoserr>	you have a windows box?
Mar 19 18:51:37 <Maoserr>	alright
Mar 19 18:52:07 <knowknowledge>	Well I'm out of things on my wishlist.
Mar 19 18:52:22 <topher>	Maoserr: no, but we can figure that out later
Mar 19 18:52:33 <arke>	I'd like to give a 'public' status update on my navmap work.
Mar 19 18:52:34 <topher>	Maoserr: linux also does cross-compiling to windows but it's basically like using mingw to generate epiar.exe
Mar 19 18:52:50 <Maoserr>	that works, but you can't generate an installer that way
Mar 19 18:52:56 <knowknowledge>	Title Screen, Missions, Trading, Equipment, Nav Screen, AI, (some) Editor stuff, and bug reporting.
Mar 19 18:53:15 <Maoserr>	find good scifi writers to write background for our universe?
Mar 19 18:53:23 <topher>	bug reporting on the web side, right? i dont think the epiar binary network bug reporting stuff is important for 0.4.0
Mar 19 18:53:30 <arke>	The navmap system works. I'm currently working on integrating Lua so that it can be controlled from there. After that, I'll rewire our existing radar screen to use the navmap system (it will look the same pixel-by-pixel), and then make the "main" navmap lool pretty. Objections?
Mar 19 18:53:40 <topher>	Maoserr: maybe it's a discussion we should have but epiar really shouldnt have a strong linear story imo. it's usually just lame
Mar 19 18:53:51 <Maoserr>	oh I don't mean a story
Mar 19 18:53:51 <knowknowledge>	arke, that sounds good.
Mar 19 18:53:52 <topher>	arke: sounds interesting enough
Mar 19 18:53:57 <Maoserr>	I just mean a backdrop
Mar 19 18:54:13 <Maoserr>	systems, planets, minor anecdotes
Mar 19 18:54:26 <topher>	Maoserr: sounds like a good epiar-devel discussion. it's probably also very important for 0.5.0 or so, once we really need to fill in content. maybe not so much for 0.4.0
Mar 19 18:54:33 <knowknowledge>	Alliances, who's at war with whom, etc.
Mar 19 18:54:43 <arke>	Adam (one of topher's friends from old old days) came up with an intriguing story where Epiar is some sort of special planet that the universe is kinda fighting over trying to find.
Mar 19 18:55:08 <Maoserr>	sounds like an interseting starting point
Mar 19 18:55:10 <topher>	yea, i dont want to go into the story parts right now. it's strikingly important to me and i dont think this is the proper forum to figure it out
Mar 19 18:55:16 <topher>	i also dont like adam's story :)
Mar 19 18:55:37 <Maoserr>	either way
Mar 19 18:55:41 <Maoserr>	I want to write the pirate story lines
Mar 19 18:55:48 <ebos>	I always like war stories two conflicting races
Mar 19 18:55:52 <knowknowledge>	At the minimum we need to start figuring out how we would add story elements to our game.
Mar 19 18:55:58 <topher>	it'd be good for the story to be very broad
Mar 19 18:56:08 <topher>	that way all the missions and separate designers can add to the canon without worry
Mar 19 18:56:16 <Maoserr>	again, I think we want to get a few real writers to discuss this
Mar 19 18:56:26 *	topher coughs
Mar 19 18:56:26 <arke>	Maoserr: good idea.
Mar 19 18:56:28 <knowknowledge>	we can have lorem ipsum stuff all over, and then let the modders create the backstory.
Mar 19 18:56:32 <Maoserr>	programmers don't exactly tell entrhalling stories
Mar 19 18:56:41 *	topher has an english minor, almost was a major
Mar 19 18:56:42 *	topher coughs
Mar 19 18:56:43 <topher>	lol
Mar 19 18:56:46 <arke>	Get a few writers who come up with it but make sure they coordinate with topher so that it fulfills his vision.
Mar 19 18:56:51 <arke>	...
Mar 19 18:56:54 <arke>	actually
Mar 19 18:56:56 <arke>	just let topher do it.
Mar 19 18:56:57 <arke>	:)
Mar 19 18:57:15 <knowknowledge>	On a different topic, I wan to talk about arke's branch.
Mar 19 18:57:17 <topher>	well, agian, let' snot worry about it
Mar 19 18:57:24 <topher>	*let's not ... righ tnow
Mar 19 18:57:30 <topher>	(damn this keyboard)
Mar 19 18:57:35 <Maoserr>	arke's branch?
Mar 19 18:57:47 <arke>	the visual studio workspace stuff?
Mar 19 18:57:56 <knowknowledge>	arke has pushed about 50 MB of visual studio stuff.
Mar 19 18:58:02 <knowknowledge>	Are there any customers for that data?
Mar 19 18:58:15 <Maoserr>	eh
Mar 19 18:58:16 <knowknowledge>	If not, I really don't want to triple the size of the repo without a good reason.
Mar 19 18:58:30 <arke>	Not at the moment, but we probably will in the future. My intention is splitting that into a separate repository that sits alongside epiar.
Mar 19 18:58:32 <Maoserr>	arke, you should probably make your own repo for that then
Mar 19 18:58:42 <ebos>	I use visual studio sometimes
Mar 19 18:58:49 <Maoserr>	I do too
Mar 19 18:58:50 <topher>	50 mb? is that really how large visual studio keeps things?
Mar 19 18:58:57 <arke>	The workspace is great for getting somebody with visual studio 2008 up and running in a few minutes.
Mar 19 18:58:58 <Maoserr>	but cmake can automatically generate everything I need
Mar 19 18:59:05 <arke>	topher: no, I've precompiled all the libraries and they are included.
Mar 19 18:59:31 <topher>	i think the cmake / autoconf thing needs to be figured out. in the very least, 0.4.0 needs to ship with one set of instructions for how to compile on some given platform
Mar 19 19:00:38 <knowknowledge>	I like the autoconf stuff because I dislike having a cmake GUI, but really I should just find the cmake command line options and then I'll be happy with cmake.
Mar 19 19:01:22 <Maoserr>	either way
Mar 19 19:01:26 <arke>	knowknowledge: once my windows box is set up again, I'll do the split and then my branch will be nice and lightweight. My suggestion is putting releases of the workspace on epiar.net so that programmers that want to play with epiar can literally just download one zip and extract, open visual studio, and be done with it. The more "adventurous" among us would probably go with cmake. 
Mar 19 19:01:51 <knowknowledge>	arke, that sounds good to me.
Mar 19 19:01:54 <arke>	Of couse, that's assuming nobody objects. :)
Mar 19 19:02:01 <topher>	i still dont mind cmake as an option but just thinking as a general linux user, cmake isnt really recognized
Mar 19 19:02:06 <arke>	The problem here is that then there's two ways for using visual studio on windows.
Mar 19 19:02:11 <topher>	untarring, running ./configure, make, make install is _really_ common
Mar 19 19:02:35 <Maoserr>	really, I don't care if cmake is dominant or not
Mar 19 19:02:35 <knowknowledge>	cmake is common enough and it does a lot of things far better than autoconf.
Mar 19 19:02:45 <topher>	no, it isnt really
Mar 19 19:03:00 <Maoserr>	but I do not care to figure out how to manually make packages for ubuntu and windows
Mar 19 19:03:12 <topher>	all of the system base utils, all of gnome, lots of other major projects are just autoconf
Mar 19 19:03:23 <knowknowledge>	doesn't KDE use cmake?  that's pretty common in my opinion.
Mar 19 19:03:29 <arke>	*cough* KDE
Mar 19 19:03:33 <arke>	.... damn matt beat me to it :)
Mar 19 19:03:43 <topher>	i dont really think because kde uses it that we should
Mar 19 19:03:50 <Maoserr>	these discussions are a waste of time
Mar 19 19:03:50 <topher>	kde's pretty much the only project i know of that uses cmake
Mar 19 19:04:01 <topher>	Maoserr: it's honestly something we need to figure out
Mar 19 19:04:04 <Maoserr>	what do we need to "figure out"?
Mar 19 19:04:21 <topher>	Maoserr: we need to know what to tell folks when they say "im on linux and i want to build from source"
Mar 19 19:04:25 <topher>	we need to have instructions for how to do that
Mar 19 19:04:30 <knowknowledge>	topher, I don't think that this is a conversation that we need to answer right now.
Mar 19 19:04:31 <arke>	ok guys, I'll be back in 3 minutes, I need to replug my computers
Mar 19 19:04:31 <Maoserr>	just tell them to use autotools then
Mar 19 19:04:48 <Maoserr>	cmake isn't an easy system to use anyways
Mar 19 19:04:56 <arke>	IRC will stay online, I'll just be silent for a bit :)
Mar 19 19:04:56 <topher>	knowknowledge: that's fine but i think it is a 0.4.0 decision
Mar 19 19:05:05 <Maoserr>	that's why I never said we should replace autotools with cmake
Mar 19 19:05:45 <knowknowledge>	We'll keep everything working for now.
Mar 19 19:06:06 <knowknowledge>	If we can figure out how to make packages for the necessary systems then we can pick something.
Mar 19 19:06:19 <knowknowledge>	But right now cmake is the only one that has packages working.
Mar 19 19:06:45 <Maoserr>	I could easily move my cmake files out of the repo
Mar 19 19:06:55 <Maoserr>	if that helps
Mar 19 19:07:17 <topher>	Maoserr: no no, let's be clear, i dont think cmake needs to go, im just saying we should pick an official build system for 0.4.0
Mar 19 19:07:27 <Maoserr>	so pick autotools
Mar 19 19:07:30 <Maoserr>	I vote autotools
Mar 19 19:07:34 <Maoserr>	so does matt and arke
Mar 19 19:07:39 <Maoserr>	motion carried
Mar 19 19:07:47 <knowknowledge>	Yay!
Mar 19 19:07:51 <knowknowledge>	:-D
Mar 19 19:07:59 <topher>	Maoserr: i apologize if im misreading but you seem somewhat vested in this?
Mar 19 19:08:01 <knowknowledge>	We'll keep autotools builds running
Mar 19 19:08:02 <Maoserr>	haha
Mar 19 19:08:22 <Maoserr>	vest in what? autotools?
Mar 19 19:08:30 <knowknowledge>	autotools builds are great for command line junkies.
Mar 19 19:08:49 <Maoserr>	I have no problem with autotools as a build system if that's what you're asking
Mar 19 19:08:54 <topher>	open source developers: if theyre on linux, they do autotools. if theyre on windows, they do visual studio. that's my strong belief about the way the world works
Mar 19 19:09:11 <topher>	im just a little confused Maoserr
Mar 19 19:09:12 <Maoserr>	let's just say I have my reasons for using cmake
Mar 19 19:09:46 <knowknowledge>	Maoserr secretly works for kitware :-D
Mar 19 19:09:49 <ebos>	brb
Mar 19 19:10:07 <Maoserr>	I actually do interact with people who work with cmake at work
Mar 19 19:10:18 <Maoserr>	Kitware is a scientific company after all
Mar 19 19:10:35 <knowknowledge>	The truth comes out :-)
Mar 19 19:10:46 <topher>	alright. is there anything else?
Mar 19 19:11:11 <knowknowledge>	We don't have names on most of our todo list.
Mar 19 19:11:16 <knowknowledge>	But that can come later.
Mar 19 19:11:31 <topher>	knowknowledge: could you post this to epiar-devel ?
Mar 19 19:11:36 <knowknowledge>	Of course.
Mar 19 19:11:48 <knowknowledge>	Oh, two more things.
Mar 19 19:12:05 <knowknowledge>	I want to rearrange the way Ships and engines inteact.
Mar 19 19:12:09 <knowknowledge>	interact^
Mar 19 19:12:45 <knowknowledge>	A ship should have: A Model, An Engine, A Primary Weapon, A Secondary Weapon, and a pile of add ons.
Mar 19 19:12:58 <knowknowledge>	The model shouldn't be linked to the Engine.
Mar 19 19:13:21 <Maoserr>	what about a ShipFactory class that links the components together?
Mar 19 19:14:08 <knowknowledge>	What would a shipfactory do?
Mar 19 19:14:29 <knowknowledge>	I was just planning on moving the Engine pointer from the model to the ship.  But this sounds intriguing.
Mar 19 19:14:33 <Maoserr>	generate a unique ship object?
Mar 19 19:15:01 <Maoserr>	idk, you line of thought just sounded like something I read about: dependency injection
Mar 19 19:15:26 <knowknowledge>	I've been thinking recently of a concept I've been calling Configurations and is closely linked to my idea for characters.
Mar 19 19:15:48 <Maoserr>	hmmm
Mar 19 19:16:10 <Maoserr>	characters?
Mar 19 19:16:13 <Maoserr>	like NPCs?
Mar 19 19:16:21 <knowknowledge>	I want planet A to have a certain kind of Ship (Trader, light thrusters, minigun).
Mar 19 19:16:31 <knowknowledge>	Characters and NPCs are linked.
Mar 19 19:16:49 <Maoserr>	I see
Mar 19 19:17:09 <knowknowledge>	I'll compose an outline of what I'm thinking and send it out to epiar-devel.  I think it would take too long to explain here.
Mar 19 19:17:36 <arke>	back
Mar 19 19:17:42 <Maoserr>	I mean your question with the ship and engine sounded an awful lot like what dependency injection solves
Mar 19 19:17:43 <arke>	on my crappy keyboard 
Mar 19 19:17:52 <knowknowledge>	But the basic idea is that I want to make the ships less random and more configurable by various alliances/planets/npcs etc.
Mar 19 19:18:10 <arke>	no backspace and a german keyboard typing in american layout so forgive me if i type weird stuff :)
Mar 19 19:18:11 <knowknowledge>	What's dependency injection?
Mar 19 19:18:21 <topher>	im sorry guys, i have to attend a birthday dinner
Mar 19 19:18:37 <topher>	ive recorded the convesation up to this point for posting. could somebody get the rest and email it to me?
Mar 19 19:19:03 <knowknowledge>	topher, before you go.  Can you tar/zip up all the art stuff that you linked and send me a link?
Mar 19 19:19:22 <knowknowledge>	I want to look at it but I don't like having to explore a filesystem in opera.
Mar 19 19:19:35 <topher>	eric's files from a few days ago you mean?
Mar 19 19:19:43 <knowknowledge>	yeah.
Mar 19 19:20:03 <knowknowledge>	There were a few zips in there, but there were too many files for me to download individually.
Mar 19 19:20:11 <knowknowledge>	I'm an impatient guy.
Mar 19 19:20:34 <topher>	sure, give me a minute
Mar 19 19:20:58 <topher>	i mentioned it on epiar-devel but if you're interested in the 3d models, the open program blender opens them nicely. i have no idea how to use blender however
Mar 19 19:21:21 <knowknowledge>	I've been able to open them, but I haven't figured out how do do much with them yet.
Mar 19 19:21:44 <topher>	FYI for those not up to speed, we're referring to: http://epiar.net/files/misc/eric/Epiar_stuff/
Mar 19 19:21:58 <knowknowledge>	as a note, lwo is a lightwave object and needs to be "imported" rather than "opened" in Blender.
Mar 19 19:22:14 <topher>	knowknowledge: http://epiar.net/files/misc/eric.tar.bz2
Mar 19 19:22:28 <topher>	169 MB
Mar 19 19:22:39 <knowknowledge>	If I figure out how to use Blender I'd like to create a slideshow tutorial on how to make Epiar ships.
Mar 19 19:22:55 <topher>	alright, cya guys later. nice discussion. if there's something important after i leave, id appreciate an email of the logs for epiar.net / posterity
Mar 19 19:23:03 <knowknowledge>	bye topher.  thanks for the link
Mar 19 19:23:08 <topher>	np, cya!
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Mar 19 19:23:11 2010

**** NOTE: The meeting is considered more or less over at this point despite some post-meeting chatter.