Jan 11 19:07:07 --- foukou sets mode +m #epiar Jan 11 19:07:21 k, Timest... guess the floor is yours Jan 11 19:07:24 whenever.. Jan 11 19:08:02 Timest: you wanted the discussion, so let's have you start, go Jan 11 19:08:12 Ok, first I want to see if epiard is a persistant universe or not. Jan 11 19:08:33 i think it may grow over time and we can just have clients download updated universes Jan 11 19:08:53 here, leme explain my 'vision' Jan 11 19:08:53 so persistant than Jan 11 19:08:57 I don't understand ... Updated universes? Jan 11 19:09:11 Timest: you said persisent as in a static, non-changing universe, right? Jan 11 19:09:13 foukou: you talk Jan 11 19:09:18 the client would never see the whole universe at once Jan 11 19:09:26 OOps, let me clarify - Jan 11 19:09:28 just like in epiar, the nav map doesn't display the whole universe at once Jan 11 19:09:38 Timest: k Jan 11 19:09:58 I mean does the player info stay on the server between sessions? So you pick up where you left off. Jan 11 19:10:04 yes Jan 11 19:10:14 I vote yes also Jan 11 19:10:18 definately Jan 11 19:10:37 and, you'd leave the game by.. say landing on a planet to save the game Jan 11 19:10:46 similar to epiar stand alone Jan 11 19:11:03 i agree Jan 11 19:11:07 sounds good Jan 11 19:11:13 it should be server based completely to prevent as much cheating as possible Jan 11 19:11:17 yes Jan 11 19:11:24 here's also what i say Jan 11 19:11:28 if you just leave the game Jan 11 19:11:28 epiar would just act as a client and would just draw what it's told Jan 11 19:11:34 and send what input it's given by the user Jan 11 19:11:35 you shouldnt be able to just appear in the same place Jan 11 19:11:41 that could cause cheating but leaving and when a battle comes, just appearing Jan 11 19:11:45 i say you must land to save Jan 11 19:11:49 in multiplayer Jan 11 19:11:50 yes Jan 11 19:11:57 if you dont, and leave Jan 11 19:12:00 you pick up at the last planet Jan 11 19:12:04 exactly Jan 11 19:12:07 sound good Timest? Jan 11 19:12:08 sounds good. Jan 11 19:12:10 good Jan 11 19:12:24 makes sense Jan 11 19:12:57 what else needs to be discussed? everybody agrees a unix only client is fine? Jan 11 19:12:57 theres more iner workings on epiard... too Jan 11 19:13:07 unix only client? Jan 11 19:13:18 it would be great to have cross platform compatability Jan 11 19:13:24 but I realize that could be tricky with libs Jan 11 19:13:24 for epiard? Jan 11 19:13:26 ooh Jan 11 19:13:32 so the win32 epiar wouldbt have multiplayer? Jan 11 19:13:39 no no Jan 11 19:13:46 epiar is cross platform in every feature Jan 11 19:13:47 epiard is the server.. it would probably be simplest just to have it unix Jan 11 19:13:58 oh..yea Jan 11 19:13:58 epiard is not crossplatform Jan 11 19:14:01 ok i get it now Jan 11 19:14:03 yea, but the client (epiar) should have networking support on all platforms Jan 11 19:14:08 carry on Jan 11 19:14:14 Next, I want to discuss massively multiplayer vs small numbers of players per server. Jan 11 19:14:33 yes, epiard as, I see it... would have 2 modes it could operate under Jan 11 19:15:03 i say limited numbers Jan 11 19:15:07 --- eclipse|food is now known as eclipse Jan 11 19:15:08 it could be a stand alone server just hosting it's own universe so a bunch of friends can just play in a universe Jan 11 19:15:15 oye sorry i'm late Jan 11 19:15:36 but, then, it would be cool to setup a meta server type system to distribute load Jan 11 19:15:46 for one main official epiar universe/game Jan 11 19:15:51 that would be cool to have a meta server Jan 11 19:16:04 each server taking on a part of the universe to host Jan 11 19:16:16 i hope you're including both styles Jan 11 19:16:27 yes, epiard would have 2 functional modes Jan 11 19:16:44 independant or meta or whatever youd want to call it Jan 11 19:16:46 then you can in essence have a LAN type system for fun, as well as a world wide one such like blizzards battle.net or whatever Jan 11 19:16:55 exactly Jan 11 19:17:02 yeah sounds like a good style Jan 11 19:17:04 so in the stand alone server, is it less of an story and more action Jan 11 19:17:04 I agree with eclipse Jan 11 19:17:05 so what type of game would epiar be in multyplayer? Jan 11 19:17:11 just like regular version? Jan 11 19:17:15 well Jan 11 19:17:18 epiar, in 0.3.0 Jan 11 19:17:19 or will there be deathmatch type games? Jan 11 19:17:21 is getting split Jan 11 19:17:24 as we have planned Jan 11 19:17:28 right Jan 11 19:17:29 into arcade mode and simulation mode Jan 11 19:17:32 ok Jan 11 19:17:34 simulation being what we've had, arcade being scenarios Jan 11 19:17:38 i think multiplayer should be the same Jan 11 19:17:47 the main metaserver would be multiplayer simulation.. Jan 11 19:17:47 you should eb able to play a scenario w/ friends or play the pure-rpg style game Jan 11 19:17:56 so what would draw someone to play epiar in multyplayer? Jan 11 19:17:57 yes Jan 11 19:18:11 interacting with other human players Jan 11 19:18:15 how open will trading and missions be in multyplayer? Jan 11 19:18:19 and battling out to become the best pilot Jan 11 19:18:20 yes but we need challenges too Jan 11 19:18:24 multiplayer thrives on challenges Jan 11 19:18:29 beating up ppl gets old Jan 11 19:18:29 right Jan 11 19:18:29 mmm challenges Jan 11 19:18:32 we need co-op missions and such Jan 11 19:18:48 i just mean as epiar is planned with missions and such Jan 11 19:18:55 mhm Jan 11 19:18:58 playing multyplayer would be no different Jan 11 19:19:07 the beauty is there.. the pillts will be able to join their own alliances and start doing missions specificaly for those alliances just like in single player but.. now with other human players.. and in the end.. have this huge galactical war against alliances maned by humans Jan 11 19:19:11 just with more ships running around Jan 11 19:19:25 foukou: i like that image Jan 11 19:19:32 yeah thats kick ass Jan 11 19:19:40 ah, with that, alliances could have elected leaders Jan 11 19:19:41 the pilots could communicate with each other and plan out attacks Jan 11 19:19:50 raids and such Jan 11 19:19:52 and if they conquer a planet, the leader shoudl eb ablt to upload a graphic logo for that alliance and name planets and such Jan 11 19:19:53 that sounds awsome Jan 11 19:19:56 i wanna play right now Jan 11 19:19:58 clans, basically Jan 11 19:20:02 yeah Jan 11 19:20:03 well Jan 11 19:20:06 epiar is based on alliances and empires Jan 11 19:20:09 a.i. wise Jan 11 19:20:13 so multiplayer should be the same Jan 11 19:20:21 you can just say "i'm a leader" Jan 11 19:20:23 and with the meta servers each clan could basically own a part of the universe Jan 11 19:20:27 other clans infiltrate Jan 11 19:20:29 and take over Jan 11 19:20:30 but you need ppl to follow you, iof you have a big ship you can get followers Jan 11 19:20:34 yes Jan 11 19:20:35 but Jan 11 19:20:42 we need a mechanism to ensure constant war Jan 11 19:20:47 right Jan 11 19:20:51 so if any empire is too big and ruins it Jan 11 19:20:57 we need a way to deplete their resources Jan 11 19:21:00 natural disasters Jan 11 19:21:01 lol Jan 11 19:21:02 spark resitance Jan 11 19:21:03 lol Jan 11 19:21:07 foukou: we could do that Jan 11 19:21:09 lol Jan 11 19:21:15 large empires could have trouble keeping planets Jan 11 19:21:18 look at this random, big ass meteor about to collide with your planet by change Jan 11 19:21:19 lol Jan 11 19:21:22 planets could develop milita and cause trouble if you're too huge Jan 11 19:21:22 yea Jan 11 19:21:24 it also costs money to runan empire Jan 11 19:21:24 i like this sabotage thing here Jan 11 19:21:30 i dunno Jan 11 19:21:31 since, there should be administrator capabilities to change the situation dynamicaly.. like.. enter in events and such Jan 11 19:21:39 $$$ is getting complex, unless we can organize it Jan 11 19:21:39 have rebel alliances popup on newer planets Jan 11 19:21:43 yeah Jan 11 19:21:55 it's a factor that needs considering Jan 11 19:21:59 this also brings up a coding question Jan 11 19:22:07 yea, I was going to get to that Jan 11 19:22:13 you can also have a time limit that a planet can be controlled Jan 11 19:22:20 i'd like to lead this part of epiar, but my C skills just lack overall Jan 11 19:22:23 uh... nah, not that way Jan 11 19:22:24 biggnthed: that's true Jan 11 19:22:25 before it is declared nutral again Jan 11 19:22:29 and has to be won back Jan 11 19:22:40 i like the whole resistance thing more Jan 11 19:22:50 ditto Jan 11 19:22:50 maybe mutiny too, i dunno Jan 11 19:22:55 alright Jan 11 19:22:55 yeah but how would we keep that up day to day Jan 11 19:22:57 but the coding question arises Jan 11 19:22:59 yeah otherwise biggnthed what if some alliance controls A planet... Jan 11 19:23:03 and then they lose it Jan 11 19:23:04 do we code entirely around a server or keep it spearate? Jan 11 19:23:14 what do you mean? Jan 11 19:23:16 biggnthed: code it in with a timer that sets off that event or something Jan 11 19:23:19 look at freeciv, they have single player, but they have no networking issues as you _have_ to use a server Jan 11 19:23:26 it's simply easier Jan 11 19:23:42 yea Jan 11 19:23:42 but that makes it hard to play epiar too Jan 11 19:23:44 topher: then we would need a win32 epiard Jan 11 19:23:45 err... don't make it like that Jan 11 19:23:46 so it really depends Jan 11 19:23:53 what type of events Vash? Jan 11 19:23:54 badalex: exactly, or servers always running Jan 11 19:23:57 would spark war? Jan 11 19:23:59 so perhaps we should keep them separate Jan 11 19:24:00 time after time Jan 11 19:24:14 biggnthed: after you control a planet after 5 days, shit happens, revolutions, rebellions, mutiny, other shit Jan 11 19:24:18 yeah i don't even think they should necessairly be integrated even into the same package topher Jan 11 19:24:19 hold. Jan 11 19:24:20 biggnthed: yeah, or milita from a planet attacks, or pirates or such Jan 11 19:24:28 well errr scratcht hat Jan 11 19:24:33 epiar single player would be no way dependant on the servers... Jan 11 19:24:34 right but how does that spark war between players? Jan 11 19:24:39 only multiplayer Jan 11 19:24:50 so... you can't start your own game? Jan 11 19:25:02 we need events that will spark war between live players Jan 11 19:25:04 Vash: what? Jan 11 19:25:11 Vash: unless you have a server... Jan 11 19:25:18 but you can always play single player Jan 11 19:25:20 nm... Jan 11 19:25:22 otherwise you just join in on the global multiplayer game Jan 11 19:25:22 and do simulations and missions Jan 11 19:25:44 brb Jan 11 19:25:50 --- biggnthed is now known as biggnthed|dog Jan 11 19:25:52 this is sounding pretty compicated Jan 11 19:25:59 yea, especially the coding aspect Jan 11 19:26:02 about those sparks, (this, i guess, is for biggnthed), maybe we have resources arise on a certain planet, so other groups will want that planet... bad. Jan 11 19:26:02 who can code this? Jan 11 19:26:15 i wish i could... Jan 11 19:26:16 i can if i have to Jan 11 19:26:30 i'd like to do it but, like I said my skills lack Jan 11 19:26:36 same here Jan 11 19:26:38 same Jan 11 19:26:40 foukou: you should still work Jan 11 19:26:50 you guys should all keep working on it, your skills, not just sit back Jan 11 19:27:19 i'm not Jan 11 19:27:23 topher: im trying lol Jan 11 19:27:23 yea.. Jan 11 19:27:24 yeah well with my time i'm getting like a page a day done topher Jan 11 19:27:27 reading programming linux games, good book Jan 11 19:27:28 but too much shit goes on Jan 11 19:27:30 anyways, Timest.. what else? Jan 11 19:28:03 topher Timest Jan 11 19:28:11 Timest: I saw you talking about tls or tts this morning... Jan 11 19:28:13 agreed Jan 11 19:28:18 i highly recommend programming linux games to everybody Jan 11 19:28:19 Lets agree on whether to do a "thin client" or not. Jan 11 19:28:22 it's free and in pdf form Jan 11 19:28:26 Timest: thin client? Jan 11 19:28:29 topher: its a good book Jan 11 19:28:48 <-- Vash has quit ("mwa ha ha i get to leave") Jan 11 19:29:23 A "thin client" sends user input to the server, as opposed to sending higher-level info. Jan 11 19:29:26 Timest: epiar in multiplayer mode will just recieve data and draw it to the screen Jan 11 19:29:38 and yea, just sends user input Jan 11 19:29:41 --> Vash (~VashTheGo@lsanca1-ar9-4-65-095-082.lsanca1.dsl-verizon.net) has joined #epiar Jan 11 19:29:43 sending user input sounds expensive Jan 11 19:29:45 yeah i know topher, i try, it's really a problem with my time though, i've got several AP classes, with terrible amounts of work, church crap that i don't even want to do, parents, a job, i'd love if all i could do was work on my programming Jan 11 19:29:50 you should send your player's moves, not their input Jan 11 19:29:59 --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Vash Jan 11 19:30:00 the client should probably do something, instead of the server doing it all.. but.. only limited to dissalow tampering and hacking Jan 11 19:30:03 sorry bout that Jan 11 19:30:07 There are 2 issues i can see. Cheating, and network framework. I don't want to do a massive rewrite later. Jan 11 19:30:14 i know Jan 11 19:30:17 the server should check data though Jan 11 19:30:27 verify data files and check movement, a certain engine type cannot move very far Jan 11 19:30:33 and the server could reject unknown engine types Jan 11 19:30:36 damage too Jan 11 19:30:39 it could cap that and send back your positions Jan 11 19:30:42 if you hack _that_ too Jan 11 19:30:47 it becomes unplayable Jan 11 19:30:56 as the server would force new positions and ignore ones that made no sense Jan 11 19:31:00 like jumping 10,000 units Jan 11 19:31:07 the server obviously wouldnt accept that sprite update Jan 11 19:31:13 yea Jan 11 19:32:07 perhaps save games could also reside on the server as that would pervent mony tampering Jan 11 19:32:16 biggnthed|dog badalex Jan 11 19:32:21 badalex: we've already discussed that Jan 11 19:32:25 and other tampering with the game files Jan 11 19:32:28 foukou: where was i lol Jan 11 19:32:52 badalex: daydreaming? Jan 11 19:33:01 slowly off topic. Jan 11 19:33:11 moving along Jan 11 19:33:44 Timest: what ... more along the lines of network framework ideas do you propose? Jan 11 19:34:35 about the server and that blizzard like idea...was there going to be one server running Jan 11 19:34:40 or how would that work Jan 11 19:35:05 you can run as many as you want Jan 11 19:35:06 one server running with the list of servers worldwide... that sounds good Jan 11 19:35:07 emvee: metaserver... master server with servers under it hosting or, taking care of the data from different sectors Jan 11 19:35:46 also, if we do get this underway.. where would we get the bandwidth resources to pull this off? Jan 11 19:35:58 i was wondering about that Jan 11 19:35:59 sponsors? Jan 11 19:36:00 that was what i was wondering Jan 11 19:36:03 then i assumed foukou Jan 11 19:36:11 foukou isn't stable enough Jan 11 19:36:11 like, I can handle the network load for a test server but.. a global server I couldnt handle Jan 11 19:36:18 nor does he have enough bw if we get stable Jan 11 19:36:26 i mean Jan 11 19:36:28 if we get big Jan 11 19:36:50 we need some one stupid, with lots of money... Jan 11 19:37:12 or perhaps some one with an oc-3 or something... Jan 11 19:37:17 say we get 10000 users... they each just check the server for a split second, download a list, then leave...... and yeah, that _would_ be a bandwidth hogger... Jan 11 19:37:22 also, the client shouldn't use more bandwidth that a person on 56k couldnt play.. Jan 11 19:37:30 yeah Jan 11 19:37:35 it would be nice if someone on a 28k dialup could play with pretty decent speed Jan 11 19:37:40 We should produce a network interface specification draft and discuss it later, after some example network code gets going. Then it will be more clear what type of network framework we should have. Jan 11 19:37:50 hrm... no one in their right mind is on 28 k, though Jan 11 19:37:54 Timest: yea Jan 11 19:38:00 Vash: doesn't matter. Jan 11 19:38:12 it may be a bit unreasonable Jan 11 19:38:34 but, I know of games that you could play multiplayer on 28-36k dialup Jan 11 19:38:36 but my 56k did go at about 28k a lot of the time Jan 11 19:39:05 and, someone on 56k dialup should definately be able to play without much problems.. Jan 11 19:39:06 foukou: yea..aiming for something that low is good Jan 11 19:39:27 I mean.. epiar is a 2d world.. not 3d... I used to be able to play 3d world games head to head over dialup without problems Jan 11 19:39:47 so, no question about it that it can't be done. Jan 11 19:39:51 so..you should be ok Jan 11 19:40:01 it requires testing but honestly, it shouldnt be that much data Jan 11 19:40:05 still lots of bandwith is needed Jan 11 19:40:27 what about the lag factor? Jan 11 19:40:50 at the least, it's sending two doubles Jan 11 19:40:55 yes, so.. say the game, at peak , on a 28k dialup.. youd get.. what.. 2k/s.. so, 50 users would use 100k/s... I can handle that. but. that's pushing it, and I definately do not want 100k load on my network all the time Jan 11 19:41:01 plus weapons fire, that means the client sends, at most 14 doubles Jan 11 19:41:18 we could use compression before sending the data Jan 11 19:41:20 foukou: why all the time? Jan 11 19:41:25 we _should_ Jan 11 19:41:29 we Jan 11 19:41:31 dont need it Jan 11 19:41:34 14 doubles at most Jan 11 19:41:36 that's less than 150 bytes Jan 11 19:41:38 per update Jan 11 19:41:40 why not just send a list to the player, then just redirect him Jan 11 19:41:45 and only 6 or 7 updates per second Jan 11 19:41:52 thought that's what we were doing, anyway Jan 11 19:41:57 that's less than 1,500 bytes a second Jan 11 19:42:08 that's no bad Jan 11 19:42:10 not* Jan 11 19:42:16 good, good Jan 11 19:42:20 that's sending Jan 11 19:42:24 yea Jan 11 19:42:25 receiving is a bit more Jan 11 19:42:32 but even so, < 4,500 bytes a second Jan 11 19:42:42 but, now we're over 28k modem Jan 11 19:42:49 that's at most Jan 11 19:42:55 assuming 7 times a second Jan 11 19:43:01 if you cant do it, you get 6 or 5 updates Jan 11 19:43:03 which isnt a big deal Jan 11 19:43:11 getting _correct_ weapons fire within 250ms isnt a big deal Jan 11 19:43:53 --- biggnthed|dog is now known as biggnthed Jan 11 19:43:55 back Jan 11 19:43:58 whats up? Jan 11 19:44:03 more discussion Jan 11 19:44:04 <-- allman[k]`away (~hey@200.50.85.29) has left #epiar Jan 11 19:44:24 cool Jan 11 19:44:35 are we pretty settled on this? Jan 11 19:44:44 what else is there? Jan 11 19:44:45 Timest: ? Jan 11 19:44:46 we have some non epiard things to discuss as well Jan 11 19:44:55 sounds good to me Jan 11 19:45:02 wait Jan 11 19:45:07 on the topic of networks Jan 11 19:45:10 yes Jan 11 19:45:16 we're still on epiard Jan 11 19:45:19 topher: remember how i asked about automatic checking for updates? Jan 11 19:45:35 maybe have current versions check for new patches Jan 11 19:45:47 that's actually already easy Jan 11 19:45:50 loki_setup provides for that Jan 11 19:45:55 ok then... Jan 11 19:45:56 as well as a binary patch generator Jan 11 19:45:57 lol Jan 11 19:46:08 so easy then Jan 11 19:46:37 I recommend leaving the latency discussion until after we get some network code running. Jan 11 19:46:56 that is probably a good idea, im just making suggestions Jan 11 19:47:15 the only problem i see is a drop in page visits, but maybe we have it check anything, posts, artwork, stuff like that, so people know what's going on and aren't just on the site when a release is made Jan 11 19:47:39 Vash: that doesnt matter Jan 11 19:47:41 how about, a notification. Jan 11 19:47:43 we still have an audience Jan 11 19:47:49 epiar alerts a user of a new version, and links them to the site. Jan 11 19:48:13 something out of the way, not a new window, just something in the lower right of the menu screen or something Jan 11 19:48:18 hey your version of epiar is outdated, there is a new version available at epiar.net! Jan 11 19:48:25 lol Jan 11 19:48:26 cool Jan 11 19:48:53 maybe put the downloader in epiar too... "click here to download it" and it just does that... (vash doesn't really know) Jan 11 19:49:09 seems like unecessary work Jan 11 19:49:46 For a persistant universe to work, the updates need to be automatic and mandatory. Otherwise the client is incompatable with the server. Jan 11 19:49:54 yes Jan 11 19:50:08 Timest: yes, if we're talking about the multiplayer then definately Jan 11 19:50:11 brb Jan 11 19:50:27 if we're just talking about epiar single player, then.. ehh Jan 11 19:50:47 so these would be patches instead of new releases Jan 11 19:51:07 how intergrated are the two going to be sp and mp? Jan 11 19:51:13 two completly seperate programs Jan 11 19:51:17 or 2 parts of the same? Jan 11 19:51:48 as I understand it, 2 different options under the same menu in the same execuatble Jan 11 19:52:11 so couldnt single player and multyplayer updates be dl'd at the same time? Jan 11 19:52:24 yea Jan 11 19:52:51 we could jsut hold a release till both where ready Jan 11 19:52:55 and patch both at the same time Jan 11 19:53:08 * biggnthed shrugs Jan 11 19:54:21 but, it may be a bit early to discuss this as we don't have any actuall multiplayer code Jan 11 19:54:31 lol Jan 11 19:54:32 true Jan 11 19:54:45 we somewhat settled with this topic and epiard? Jan 11 19:54:50 for now, anyways Jan 11 19:55:35 move on to reipel! Jan 11 19:55:37 lol Jan 11 19:55:47 >topher< done with epiard? Jan 11 19:56:02 >topher< whats next for discussion? Jan 11 19:56:03 yes, lets talk about network protocol next. TCP/UDP, encryption Jan 11 19:56:16 okay Jan 11 19:56:42 whats the advantage of either tcp or udp? Jan 11 19:57:26 TCP has guaranteed reliability, which is why I will be using it, at least initially. Jan 11 19:57:49 yea, i'd say go with tcp myself Jan 11 19:58:06 i dont know the difference but tcp sounds more familiar Jan 11 19:58:32 tcp/ip is unix native Jan 11 19:58:33 makes sense Jan 11 19:58:36 *to use it Jan 11 19:58:39 ok Jan 11 19:58:46 UDP has no reliability guarantee. Packets could get lost or corrupted. Jan 11 19:58:47 so id go with that then Jan 11 19:59:11 * emvee meant not udp Jan 11 19:59:26 tcp is good Jan 11 19:59:34 wanna move onto epiar's future or stay with the topic of epiard? Jan 11 19:59:43 and, encryption? encrypting the data that's sent? Jan 11 19:59:48 to stop tampering? Jan 11 20:00:08 um Jan 11 20:00:12 i say no for that Jan 11 20:00:13 is it that critical if data is tampered if the server checks the data anyways Jan 11 20:00:14 it's open source Jan 11 20:00:17 you can always tamper Jan 11 20:00:19 yea Jan 11 20:00:21 there's no point in sucking cup to do it Jan 11 20:00:24 *cpu Jan 11 20:01:11 I dunno, I do envison that open source game like this with many players competting, there'll be plenty of attempts to cheat Jan 11 20:01:31 I mean, im sure there is already plenty with closed sourcce games Jan 11 20:02:00 there are Jan 11 20:02:04 you cant stop it from happpening Jan 11 20:02:07 server checks are good enough Jan 11 20:02:14 as well as authentication Jan 11 20:03:25 guess the best way is just to find out through experience Jan 11 20:03:30 btw Jan 11 20:03:33